Neomodern isn't the only company with a passion for getting images off your phone and onto your wall: Fracture is a growing business that has tapped into the challenges of printing on glass, in the tradition of Ansel Adams' and even the original Daguerreotypes, all photographic processes on glass.
We spoke with Herb Jones, CMO of Fracture, about their mission and process.
ON THE WALL of Herb Jones
Rubin: Hey Suzanne.
Suzanne: Hey Rubin. How are you?
Rubin: I'm good. Um, dare I ask where you are?
Suzanne: Um, in the vicinity of San Francisco, but I'm not in our usual recording studio. It's a bit of a, an Improv studio today.
Rubin: Wow. I think, um, well that's our hallmark is that we--
Suzanne: literally taking our show on the road quite literally.
Rubin: Um, all right, well, cool. Suzanne [inaudible] I'd like to introduce to you Herb Jones. Herb, this is Suzanne. [Hi, Suzanne. Hi. Herb.] Herb is CMO... Herb is CMO at a company called Fracture and they, like Neomodern, um, really believe in printing stuff. So I thought we would bring on someone who's like at least like-minded. I don't have to argue with anyone.
Suzanne: The importance of printing your photos, getting them off of your phone and onto your wall. Um, I know, I think we're all believers. It is, it is wonderful to meet you here. What I'm actually familiar with your work, uh, commercials. I saw them and I remember telling Rubin, I'm like, have you heard about these guys? I was, I was at, this is great. So, uh, it's so exciting to have you on the show.
Herb: So cool. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
Rubin: Where are you today? Where her, where are you today?
Herb: I am in Sunny Florida and uh, it's a rather nice weather today. It should be working from outside someplace. Um,I don't know if you where we're located. We're located in Gainesville, Florida,
Rubin: Gainesville, Florida. I don't know if you know this, but I'm from Gainesville, Florida. What are the odds of that? That's the key. [Does have so much in common. ]That's awesome. I never know anybody from Florida. This is so cool. Um, have you been, are you from Gainesville?
Herb: I moved to Gainesville in, uh, 1996, um, to attend the University of Florida. (Oh, you're a gator) and I am a Gator. And so I, um, moved here in 96, graduated 99, uh, met the love of my life in 2000 while I was starting my first company. And, uh, just we fell in love with it and decided there was a place where we want to raise our family.
Rubin: Wow. Well, I, well I can certainly support that. I was raised in Gainesville. I was born, born there and went to Gainesville high school. Me and Tom Petty, you know, that's a long time ago. Well, okay. We didn't actually overlap, but he was like in our neighborhood. Yeah. One of the cooler things about Gainesville's that a Tom petty and the heartbreakers or from there and you. Yeah. So tell, tell us about fracture.
Herb: So tell you about fracture. So I'm not, so for clarity, um, I've been with fracture now. I joined fracture, uh, in September of 2013. So it's been a really fun rocket ride with fracture is a fun. Um, just a fracture is a very fun, um, lovable company that has, um, just an incredible mission. And that mission is we want to fight ephemera and get people to fall in love with the printed image and really focus on the moments in their lives that matter. Yes. And it is, yeah, I mean it is, it is something that over the past five and a half years, um, I've really taken like the core company beliefs and they just really resonate with me. I have four daughters. Um, so maybe that makes it more personal. I have a 12 year old, I have a nine year old and as of today, I twin eight year olds. Is that actually the birthday that we'll be in birthday mode later tonight. But I mean I have all these incredible life moments. Um, and so being part of the Fracture family over the past five years, it just really reinforced the need to like celebrate these moments and print out these special moments and put them on the walls and, and give them as gifts and remind people that this is what's really important.
Rubin: Well, I'm 100%, I'm 100% behind that philosophy. What makes fracture? Why fracture? What does that even, what does that mean? How does that fit in there? You know, so
Herb: So I wasnt around when they named the company, but the s the, the tail that I've been told, um, was that, um, essentially just take two words frame and picture and you mash them together, you get fracture. Of course, we get a lot of fun ribbing online, you know, the, uh, you know, I don't think a a month goes by on Twitter when somebody doesn't mention how it's an unfortunate name, but we laugh at it and we've had a lot of fun. We've had a lot of fun just engaging with all the people on social media that I think are realizing the same thing about just sort of that Ephemera that exists, you know, with social, Instagram, especially Facebook,
Rubin: don't you find that Instagram, the whole, the way that Instagram has both popularized photography in a certain kind of way and really crushed it at the same time. It's just the people that take a lot of pictures, but they're just, there's just nothing. It's just something that you do it, they don't, they're not designed to be kept or looked at.
Herb: Wow. There are gone in an instant. You have five likes and um, they're gone. Um, and that's unfortunate.
Rubin: And what do you do for, oh, sorry, one more. I'm just so, so you're printing, you're printing on glass, is that, that's right, right? Yeah.
Herb: Yeah. So a little bit about fracture. Um, we are a photo do core company and our first product, so to speak, and the product we really been honing and focusing on over the past 10 years. Now this, this is actually fractures tend to year is a printing your favorite photos directly to glass. Um, that it gives it a really, it's, it gives your photos and incredible effect. Um, and it's just a really more modern alternative like traditional framings are traditional canvases. Um, and so if your taste or more minimalist, um, we're, we're contemporary. Um, fractures might be a very good option for you.
Suzanne: Refresh. My memory isn't actually printing on glass, like part of the historic way of printing photographs. Isn't that what like Ansell Adams used to.
Rubin: Well he didn't print on glass. I mean there are negative, they're all old printing processes like to Garrett types and things like that that were done directly on glass. Um, you guys have invented some sort of a different process. It's not easy to put an image on glass. You need to do a lot of stuff. And so you must have figured out a way to make this work. It's not an easy thing. I mean I, you can just stick a piece of glass in your printer. You've got to do something right.
Herb: It's, it's required a lot of testing, um, a lot of, of attempting, you know, different iterations of the process and just really honing and honing over years and years and not only honing the process, um, because the process was pretty well in place when I came on board and the new challenge that I threw in, um, as chief marketing officer was trying to maintain that same level of quality and then scale. So, um, and I think that's what's been most impressive to me in my five and a half years is just seeing how production has been able to scale because I'm sure as you guys know, I mean we can't take prints and stock them on the shelves. We can stock raw product. But the real big challenge is the fact that we're a on demand manufacturing company. And for example, right now for mother's Day, um, it's unfortunate we have people that are coming to the site, they want to get their mom a gift and give it to her on the 13th, but, um, you know, despite the fact that our production capacity is increased significantly since I started, um, you know, our, our shipping dates right now are out to May 20th.
Rubin: Oh Wow. So they've already as they haven't, if they hear about this, there's too late for mother's Day for these guys.
Herb: Absolutely. Um, you know, there's gift cards as an option, but at the end of the day, um,
Suzanne: as fast as the chief marketer though, I want to make it funny. Happy.
Rubin: How much, what's your throughput like? How many can you make in a day? A lot. Really?
Herb: Well, I mean, I mean the throughput is actually very, very high. Um, you know, we, I, I don't want to give you a specific number because it's really a function of, of a manufacturing unit that we use to standardize across all different sizes. So we are through, we look at it from a manufacturing unit unit would really make any difference to anybody, but the throughputs increased I'd say by a power of 10 are the past few years. Wow. So, wow.
Suzanne: How has your own photography changed since you've worked at fracture? Since now you get to see all these pictures that other people are making, kind of come through the system and, you know, get shipped off to go on their walls. How has, how has your photography changed?
Herb: You know, that is a fabulous question because, um, I, you know, I like many people, you know, you know, the my primary, you know, my primary photography was Oh, you know, my smartphone. Um, and it just what you have, you know, when, you know, when you're in the moment, when that special moment happens, you grab whatever you have in most of the time. That's something that's in my pocket. Um, and as a parent of, of little children, um, I was always packing all this extra gear, you know, diapers and everything else, you know, that you need for little kids, you know, and food. And so what I ended up doing, um, probably about a year after I joined fracture, um, and really wanting to hone my own personal craft is I bought a four thirds microwatt and Olympus four thirds micro with, uh, with the prime lens too. I was trying to go back and basically serious. Yeah, yeah. Am I zoom is my feet and, and I absolutely loved shooting with that thing. Um, most of the fracture prints, I have it hanging up in my house. I've taken with that Olympus. It's a fabulous little camp.
Rubin: I mean, the phone cameras are really getting better. I mean, when you guys started, they must've been really crappy 10 years ago. You couldn't really get a decent print out of a smartphone, but now they're like, like Lika's they're amazing. So I mean the microphone thirds is great, but your phone could kind of do it right? Yeah, yeah.
Herb: Yeah. And I still, I have plenty of prints on my phone, but I'll tell you and that nothing, nothing compares to just having an amazing lens. Now that being said, um, for father's Day, uh, my ask is the anamorphic lens from moment to moment. Camera Lenses. Have you seen those oh moments. Great.
Rubin: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. We've been talking to, to moment as well. It's like, I like those guys. They got some really, oh yeah. Yeah.
Herb: They make awesome products. So hopefully for father's Day I get that little nice little moment set up.
Rubin: Did you take pictures before, like before you got into the picture business, would you say you were a photographer? Did you take a lot of pictures?
Herb: No, I was a marketer. I can't, I came at it from a digital marketing perspective. Um, I, I took lots of pictures, but you know, my photography Iq is so low, so low. I, I would hate to call myself a photographer on any level because I understand how much goes into the craft now. He still scratching the surface.
Rubin: Do you guys have to do any, so when people send in their pictures to get them put on glass, is there something special you do? Image why, I mean, I know this, it's a complex process to get in or to adhere it to the glass. But um, in prepress or whatever you'd call it, pre production, do you need to change the contrast or the color? Sacha, is there something you do to make it more look better on the glass?
Herb: Not really. Um, it's just naturally, yeah, we, we have a 60 day happiness guarantee. No questions asked. We will make your image right if you don't like it for any reason. Um, and I, you know, oftentimes we're addressing image quality issues because somebody had an old black and white, you know, and it was torn or ripped. And it was crinkled, but it was the only picture they have at the great grandfather or something like that. And they want to get that printed on fracture. And so we, we, we ended up doing a lot of consultation and we, and we can even, you know, take that image and put it in Photoshop and do everything we can for the client. But it's really a point where, you know, the customer asks for it. Um, we don't really volunteer those level of services because we have, you know, we have customers all across the spectrum. You know, we have, you know, the 80 year old grandma and this is the only picture she has of her dad, you know, and you know, maybe she's even trying to send us the hard copy of that. And then all the way down to like professional photographers, you know, major influencers, you know, and we have people that, you know, they absolutely, they, they, they would be horrified if they found out we did any kind of preproduction touchups to their images. You know, they have their colors perfect and they know exactly what they want. So it's really a point where that when the customer asks for help than be cage,
Suzanne: is there an image that you've printed, um, on fracture that you, you knew you really liked going into it, but that when you actually saw it printed, um, that kind of made you gasp or made you just really, really excited to hang it on your wall?
Herb: Yes. Um, I can actually look over my shoulder and see the hanging right by my front door and it is how can we see it? I could, I could actually take you down there if you want it to say. Um, but um, yeah, let me do that really quick. I'll show you. Um, and we actually use this print in a mother's Day ad probably four years ago. Um, I'll just run you down really quick.
Rubin: It'd be cool to get a still image of it at some point cause we can show that cause not everyone's going to watch. We're, we're not gonna show the video.
Herb: Okay. Yeah. I'll say I'll show you. There's an image that very quickly, um, so right behind my, my in here, let's see this image right here on the beach. This is my wow. But this is my lovely wife and my now nine year old daughter. She was pretty teeny tiny at the time, then on the beach and so cute. She was probably three years older when we, um, when we did the, um, yeah, she's probably two or three years older than, than at image when we did the mother's Day shoot. So we actually had her holding it and giving it like she was giving it to. Huh. And that was a pretty fabulous one. Yeah.
Rubin: Did a professional take that or did you take that or how did that come from?
Herb: I took that with the Atlantis.
Rubin: Oh, you do like that camera. It's a good camera. Yeah.
Suzanne: So great. I mean just like the rhythm of their bodies and how your daughter is like kind of kicking up her foot and then the, yeah, like ribbon of water is almost like reaching out to her hand and then with your wife's body position, it's, it is a great photo. Great Movement. And then, um, just so meaningful to you that it's two, two of your favorite people in the world.
Rubin: Do you, do you find any, um, uh, group more tuned into what you're doing? Like, is it better for senior? I know, I know that ultimately you have a wide audience, but, um, our kids, the dominant group, is it seniors? Is it, like, what can you characterize who like is into this the most?
Herb: Yeah, so that, I mean, that's a great question. Um, and it's hard to nail down who we appeal to the most, but I can tell you, um, I, I think the images that we see the most frequently, um, obviously lots of life milestone moments. Um, lots of babies, lots of pictures of kids. Um, lots of pictures of family gatherings and that and you know, tons of pets, tons of pets. Um, gosh, I mean, dogs really make fractured, go to the point where we have our, our office dog Raja, who's in there everyday with this. Um, and at the same time, you know, we just see, I'd say ballpark say maybe 15 to 20% of the images we see you have a dog in. I'm at some point. Um, we have cat lovers too, but dogs. Yeah. Dogs. Just interesting on the special where photographers have dogs, I guess funny correlation. It's just uh, um, I mean really like I would say like these middle aged families and I think it's because they've reached more milestone moments in their life. So you know, you know, you think about who you want to appeal to and you want to think about who has the most milestone moments they're starting to stack up. And young couples, you know, maybe they bought their first house, you know, you know, there's going to be a need there, you know, baby wedding anniversaries, special moments with family. And then, you know, as you get older, you know, as you get maybe get to my age or older, you start looking at it printing or Framing other things in memorial. Um, you know, parents that have passed away or grandparents that have passed away, um, you know, then you start getting into graduations and kids leaving the house and then they're getting married and they're having no kids. And so all of a sudden you've got a flurry of, you know, grandparents, you know, that we're printing pictures of kids and their own special moment. So, so it's, uh, it's a, it's a pretty interesting sort of big monstrous demographic we appeal to, but I think probably that core is like the youngest families, the younger families.
Rubin: Are there any kinds of pictures that reproduce better on glass and others? Um, or is it like too black and white work as well as like color? I Dunno. Is it just the, the, because of the substrate being shiny, I wonder if that lends itself to certain photography just really being advantageous in that medium.
Herb: Um, so I would, I s the p personal preference, right? I mean, um, I love pictures with a lot of bright color, bright, vivid color. Um, I love the nature of photography, that I see, um, and we just have some incredibly gifted photographers. It send stuff through, um, you know, stuff that absolutely inspires me as a photographer. Like, you know, just wow, I never would have thought of like approaching that shot from that angle or you know, wow. That macro lens right there work so well, you know, uh, I mean to the point where sometimes I'm even trying to look up the epic's data and try to understand more about like what their settings where we are getting the shot. Um, black and whites look amazing. Um, and I don't know if that's just the frameless appearance, um, but I've seen some black and white shots that are just incredibly moving, um, portraits. Um, just, yeah, I mean,
Rubin: and then, I mean, it's funny. I mean, so neomodern art, my company, uh, we have the same fundamental belief, the how important it is for people to get things off of their phone, out of the cloud and into some sort of physical, tangible form for, for us, it's funny because we only were like in the same way that you really have crushed specialized and how to get it on glass and make it look amazing in that format. We specialize in paper. You know, I, it, it seems old school, but, um, there's something about, for me, the tactile nature of holding the physical print that I like. So it's interesting to me that we have this different, uh, execution feeling, you know, feelings about that, but really the same underlying, um, passion for the printed image. I think that's cool. I don't know. I just, that's me.
Suzanne: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I would, I would even my further that question I've heard, what would you say is, for you, what is the most important thing to get people's pictures off their phone and onto their wall? What do you mean? Of course, like most, uh, what's the most important reason that you see? Why, why do you think people should really get away from this, that a femoral fleeting image and, and commit to it and get to see it all the time?
Rubin: Because it's certainly convenient in, in a digital format. I mean, we, we can embrace that. It really takes, mix it frictionless for sharing an image in a lot of ways and posting it on social media and all that. But yeah. How do you describe getting it off the phone? Like why is that so important?
Herb: Um, well, I mean, been research that's been done that really illustrates the like savoring, like those special moments and printing things is good for you from a health perspective. Um, I think one of the most inspirational, I think one of those inspirational interviews we've done for our blog as we interviewed a guy, and I believe he's a priest. Um, I could be wrong, but he, um, he was battling cancer and he did, he took it upon himself. He made the decision to just surround himself with like, like images that he absolutely loved. And I don't think they were only family members or special life moments. I think they were just generally just images that brought him joy and, and he decided to make that a part of his, just his environment there and to help him. But for me, uh, I mean life is short. I mean, and I think the older you get, the more you realize that, you know, there's going to be some people that you're spending quality time with today that you don't have any guarantee they're going to be with you tomorrow. Um, you know, I lost my mom in 2011 and, you know, one of the big regrets that I have is, is that I don't have more images of her. Um, and I spend a lot of time there at the end. While she, she, she, she, uh, struggle with brain cancer for about a year and I took some pictures of it then, but I wish I had pictures, you know, for years before that. I wish it had been more of a focal point for me. Um, lost my father when I was 16 years old and I have some great images of him, but I wish I had more. Um, so I'm, I'm constantly emphasizing that to my girls. I'm like, one day you guys are going to love all these images that we constantly take and you guys will be able to go through these images and be able to really walk through a lot of details that you're, that you're just gonna Forget.
Rubin: I also would add that, you know, you don't want to give your kids 100,000 digital files in a cloud somewhere. It's like to let you go through that and pick out the ones that you think that they would want to have or keep or that they would want to do it while you're alive. You to go through some of that process. Um, I don't know. It just seems to me part of, part of the process, you know, going through and picking out the pictures that are good that you want to be the, the classic family shots.
Herb: Yeah. I mean a a 64 gig memory card, that's, that's a couple years to go through a review of just for us. So that definitely makes a lot of sense.
Rubin: Um, so where's fractured going? Like what's your vision over the next bunch of years?
Herb: Um, good question. Good question. So in a very tangible way, um, we actually just got the keys to a brand new facility, um, uh, brand new carbon neutral facility, hearing her in Alachua, Florida, which is the town just, just adjacent to Gainesville. And um, we're actually in the process of moving in there now. So that's pretty exciting for me is, is the marketer and has been really charged with helping grow the company. You know, being able to get us to a point where we literally just have to move into a much larger facility. You know, this is a box that I've been wanting to check off for a long time, but I mean we, we have a product roadmap we've created and we want to find ways to get beyond glass and offer people other products, but innovative products. I mean we want to find a way to get people products. So even if a glass print that's going to hang on your wall isn't Your Cup of tea or it's not your specific use case, maybe you prefer frames or you maybe prefer canvases. We want to find other types of products to get out there and offer you. So there's going to be some pretty tremendous growth in the future. Both with our current line. Um, we'll be able to offer, we're, we're in the process of working on different aspect ratios. Currently we only offer four by three in square prints right now. And how large, how large can they go? Um, our largest size right now I believe is 26 inches at the, at the maximum dementia.
Rubin: Yeah, that's pretty, that's a, that's fair. It's not a lot of people's pictures can get that big.
Herb: No, you're exactly right. So I apologize. Um, because you were to four, three aspect ratio, it doesn't come out that like nice clean numbers, right? Like, I mean, but when we, when we started offering to buy three is we'll start offering poster size 24 by 36. Um, but currently are lots of sizes, 21, six, 21.6 by 28, eight guys and our a square. It's, it's decent size, uh, for sure.
Rubin: Um, I find people do that. Is that a common, I mean, what are most, what's the size that most people see their stuff at?
Herb: So that is a, that is a pretty common size. I mean, the price alone is what, you know, tends to, uh, you know, take it down a notch in terms of overall sales. Um, our largest square print is 23 by 23. Um, but especially due to seasonality and the fact that I ballpark at least half of our orders are gifts. Um, the smaller sizes tend to dominate our, our smallest rectangle, which is, you know, essentially a five by seven. It's 4.8 by 6.4 inches. Um, that's our most popular product.
Suzanne: Hmm. Do I wanted to ask you a question? Um, before it was something that made me think of, um, just where you talked about the priest and, and printing for health and then your kids in their memories. I just, I'm reading the whole brain child right now and it's talking about the importance of sort of reliving memories with your kids as, as they happen to revisit things that are great memories and also things that aren't, but the idea is to kind of, it helps them develop to have these memories that you, that are discussed and brought up more than once. And so I've never put it together before, but I love the idea that actually that's what photos are on walls there. They're actually tools to help your children build better memories a better sense of, you know, storytelling in a better sense of, um, kind of creating their own story and capturing it.
Herb: That's awesome. For both our la yeah, I just dropped out in the chat, but that's an old blog post we did. Um, I'm pretty put this can make you a happier person. Oh, awesome. And uh, yeah, trying to get that message out there. That's really interesting. The whole brain child you said?
Suzanne: Yeah. It's the whole brain child by Daniel Siegel,
Rubin: the link. Um, if we talk about it and I might put the link in the podcast notes so people can check that out. That sounds good.
Suzanne: Yes. Yeah. I feel so much about photography right now. Um, or at least the mentality I'm trying to get away from is take a picture or record it. I did it, I was there and move on. And it's almost like it's like I checked the box instead of actually enjoying the shading these moments. And so when I print them, I do get this moment. I do, I get to relive those moments and they become even more meaningful. So I, I, I love, I hope anyone else that is trying to help tell that story too. I think it is so important to sort of see your work and that it can evolve, that you don't have to just print something once you, some print other things and the wall can change and grow as your children age and as you know, as your family continues to grow. Yeah.
Herb: It's funny. Um, I try to take down fractures of, you know, I have prints in our hallway, like a running down her hallway of, of, of my daughters when they were younger and replace them with newer prints and um, they don't want me to don't like they like four years ago, three years ago or two years. Like they like seeing the younger version, they'd like remembering that moment. And I, and I love that that's something that's being instilled in them. You know, at a young age, you know, it reminds me,
Rubin: um, a lot of people when they come in to neomodern and the question is like, is this picture good enough? I have a bunch of these and there's a, there's always debate about it. And for a long time I used to think our work was to help people figure out which picture was the iconic picture, the best picture. And now after doing it for awhile, it's really, it goes the other way. Choosing a picture, any picture makes it the iconic picture. It's not like it's a, it starts out that we're trying to identify which one is great. I, it's often just pick one and by virtue of choosing it and putting it on your wall, it becomes iconic. And that's what the experience experiences. You can't take it down. It's become this emblem of our childhood or that trip. Even though there's a dozen other pictures that becomes the one. But that's it. That's a better proposition in a weird way then trying to labor yourself with figuring out which is the greatest picture here and it's not good enough in some way cause just printing it will make it good enough.
Herb: Yeah, that that is, I, I, I absolutely loved that. That's something we struggle with so much. I mean that's what we hear from customers all the time. We hear, we hear from people all the time and say, oh I love fracture. You guys were awesome. And you know, my first question is, you know, well how'd you hear about us? You know, as a marketer I want to be attribution. And secondly it's like, oh well you know, have you printed anything yet? Oh No, I'm still looking for that perfect image. You know, I've looked in to flip that on its head and basically say the perfect image will be the way of what you, what you choose. Right, right. Yup. I mean that's, that's an interesting way to look at the challenge, but it is a very real challenge.
Rubin: I mean very well for us, I would say that is the single barrier to entry, which is, God, this is amazing. How do I pick which one, which is one of the
Herb: reasons why we have this as a concierge thing. Because we would say just upload 10, like let's look at them with you. That's brilliant. When I saw that on your site, I was like, that is so brilliant because you're helping overcome that first giant hurdle. Yeah. You know, and they just don't feel confident. And I think part of that is, you know, Instagram and social media and you have this fake version of people's lives and yeah, people will like, you know, I, I have a friend, she has a daughter who's 17 years old and we took them, um, we took them someplace up in North Carolina up in the mountains. And just, I mean, there was a whole period of time, you know, there's probably like 10 minutes when she's like just taking pictures of her daughter and a whole variety of different poses and then they went through them and then got the perfect one. Okay, I'm putting this on Instagram and I'm like, wow. Like you could have just sat here for 10 minutes and enjoyed this majestic view. What'd you do? All that work for something. It's got to go on Instagram and like 30 seconds later and nobody's going to see it or care about it. Right, right, right. But whether it's fracture or whether it, any other brands, um, I would just really stress, and this is something that I, I love seeing with younger generations is just be thoughtful about the things that you buy. Um, be thoughtful about the companies you buy from and make sure that there are companies that are actually really trying to do good in the world. Um, and we're not just contributing to a lot of the, the challenges that we have as a planet at a larger scale. I think one of the, what are the beliefs and values that has grown on me the most with fractured, was just being, being a good steward of the earth, being a good earth citizen. We're a carbon neutral company and that's really difficult. I mean it's, it's really difficult to do. Um, as a manufacturer you have to jump through a lot of hoops and we're, and we're looking at every aspect of the manufacturing process of our offices in general and trying to be as thoughtful as possible and trying to reduce our carbon footprint and then we offset whatever's left.
Rubin: Wow. Nice job. Nice job. Herb. Thank you for joining us and I'm so excited that you're in Gainesville. I'll come visit you and I'm visiting my mom next time. Again, it's that bias. Um, our show is the coordinator and produced in San Francisco and partially Gainesville. Go to neomodern.com/podcast to get show notes, see photos, post comments. Please leave reviews and ratings on iTunes and to get to subscribe from you, telling your friends and spreading the word. If you know someone who might get something from us that in thank you to Mitchell Foreman for our theme music and all of you for hanging out with us. We appreciate your attention and we hope we've given you some things to think about. Until next time.
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